Cow Slaughter Cruelty Exposed: Why Back Trade In Savagery? | India Upfront With Rahul Shivshankar
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Transcript (English — en)
[Music]
that's right this morning news broke
that the center was planning to lift the
ban on the trade of cattle for slaughter
just six months after it was imposed the
government wanted to ban trade for
slaughter took her cruelty and smuggling
of livestock but at anything really
changed to warrant a rollback on that
decision
remember the ban was being opposed but
pro-choice groups several religious
bodies and opposition political parties
who said that the ban was a backdoor
attempt at imposing a Hindu - a moral
code upon the people the government at
that time had argued that this was an
attempt to try and prevent cruelty of
unimaginable scale against the livestock
in particular buffaloes and cows today
we can tell you with a degree of
authority viewers that nothing has
changed on the ground the cruelty in
fact has assumed the proportions of
barbaric savagery times now's access
tapes of a sting operation conducted by
animal rights groups over a period of
one and a half years to two years which
reveals the savagery that defenseless
and mute animals are subjected to in the
name of economic activity trade and
choice that's right we will today bring
to you the reality and also to you the
absolute inhumanity of those that are
profiting from savagery and we will
leave it to you to decide whether
slaughter without sensitivity
I should be allowed in India that's
right let's look over some of the
sequences the hard facts first let's
look at the hard facts okay let's just
let's just play out one by one the
sequences of the footage that we have
and look at what is going on the ball is
at the slaughter spot a man raises the
hammer and strikes it on the forehead
that's right the ball then collapses and
he's writhing in pain and then as he is
writing in pain the live bull is
slaughtered for meat for your choice for
your taste look at it again
man raises the hammer let's put in full
frame the bullets hit on the forehead
with a hammer that's right
cattle is brought to be slaughtered but
instead of stunning them first the
butcher's beat them with hammers as the
cattle rides in pain and then while they
are conscience they are slaughtered they
are slaughtered
isn't that just completely unforgivable
isn't that unforgivable Anand is there
with us and I want you to take us
through sequence to that we are going to
see in just a short while sequence to is
just as barbaric viewers just as
barbaric tape yellow tape to take us
through tape - yes route and and look at
each of these visuals we have actually
selected some of the ones which we can
put on air because they are so gross
that your conscience your conscience is
shaken when you see this angle look at
gee look at how look at how
their feet are tied and then they are
actually they are actually made to walk
chained they are tortured inside these
slaughterhouses there is more after this
they are actually slit the Rope is
pulled with brutality there is absolute
bestiality on display the way these
cattle are treated inside these
slaughterhouses look at the cruelty
that's being meted out the Buffalo
collapses because what they do is tie
the feet and then just full give it one
big yank and that yank the poor animal
just collapses it's got nowhere to go
that's how they wield it and then they
skinned it cut it alive right at the
neck just below where the skin is soft
they just slash it valley ally of rose
lash it on a complete violation of rules
there is a very stipulated code which
needs to be exercised when animals are
slaughtered but let's go back to that
sequence to once
I just want to talk over it conscious
cattle there in those pictures are being
butchered that's right they're alive
they are being killed in front of other
cattle which is clearly prohibited in
the rules and regulations set by the
government imagine if you were in a
situation where you were being
slaughtered and you were being seen
hundreds of your fellow beings being
slaughtered and when you are led when
you are led into that room what would be
going through your head now there is a
ban on this type of cruelty because it
obviously enhances what is already a
brutality let's now look at tape three
tape three shows torture not just by the
butchers but even the owners of the
cattle they are beaten with cane sticks
and chains that bones are broken and
their eyes are gulped out
these pictures these pictures watch
these pictures this is the reality all
those today that consume beef this is
how your beef is processed this is how
it arrives and lands on your tables and
the government today wants to reverse
the ban on trade of cattle for slaughter
just six months after it was imposed
because it is under pressure from
lobbies it is under pressure from
parties in various states but we want to
ask we want to ask what justifies what
justifies this road back I want to bring
in Vivek jnana executive editor also we
make a there are rules aren't they rules
that are being thrown to the wind look
at this is an absolutely cruel just talk
us through some of the rules which need
to be followed and whatever be the
reason that the state is reconsidering
its move one thing is quite clear India
being the largest exporter of beef
monetary benefits will be weighing in
the minds of people who take these
decisions there are states which have
been putting pressure on the Union
government there have been political
parties and pressure and religious
groups which have been doing the same
well there is this a very elaborate set
of rules the Ministry of Environment and
Forests had come out with which came in
the in the form of a notification titled
Prevention of Cruelty to Animals
slaughterhouse rules and regulations in
2001 well right from then right from
2001 sixteen years have passed but all
these rules that I have in my hand
most of these rules are not being
followed there are at least a hundred
points I can bring out from this paper
rahul which have been very clearly
floated by each and every of those
slaughterhouses that you are seeing well
point number one it says no animal which
is which has an offspring which is less
than three months old shall be
slaughtered no animal which has not been
certified by a veterinary doctor and is
not in a fit condition shall be
slaughtered do you see
any doctor anywhere there we have
pictures of of buffalos with offsprings
which have been butchered that
particular Buffalo had an offspring bite
site in an earlier video earlier shot
we are quite clearly being butchered its
mother being butchered right in front of
its eyes well there are eight other main
headers including a reception area or
resting area for buffalos before they
are slaughtered well there is no way
they can be a resting area for a cattle
in that kind of an illegal cow slaughter
shed there are higher ages where 24
hours each animal has to be rested
before the actual slaughter and when it
comes to actual slaughter Rahul there
are 15 points which have been mentioned
which includes stunning of the animal
keeping the animal at enclosure where
other animals cannot see point number
one no animal shall be slaughtered in a
slaughterhouse in sight of other animals
well that is completely being flowered
only these are these are rules that are
set in stone but they are being violated
by greedy individuals who want to profit
from savagery there is no other way of
putting it there is no other way of
putting it the center is now mulling the
ban the rollback of the ban why because
states where beef is legal those states
were challenging the ban and there was a
state cattle sale for slaughter in
markets was banned so people who are
saying that their economic activity was
being hit yes their economic activity
was being hit because they don't respect
their trade their trade is not butchery
and savagery that's the basic point and
I want to open this out I want to open
this out let's ask some questions and
these are the big question that we are
going to put out on our screens and we
must ask these questions in the face of
savagery has the time come to ban cow
slaughter entirely no ban on beef eating
import your beef from countries where
there are more humane approaches to a
slaughter in fact if there can be any
humane approach is in the slaughter
isn't slaughter by definition cruel and
violative animal rights fundamental
questions need to be asked
can any government political party a
pro-choice group guarantee slaughter
without pain so why are we moving
towards reversing this banned in trade
which is really trading in savagery and
I want to open this out let's bring in
Amrita ballet IDI of the animal equality
group who has actually carried out this
sting operation and brought this
horrific fact and truth into the open
Amit Malviya spokesperson in the BJP is
with us Monica Arora advocate to the
Supreme Court
Gowri Malakian animal rights activist
suni Chopra of the Left parties the Left
States want this ban lifted we must ask
them in yasha freudian islamic scholar
dr. john they are human rights activists
well let me first come out to you I'm
Luther Valley this is going on
apparently in ten states across the
length and breadth of this country it's
happening in so-called legal
slaughterhouses it's happening in dairy
farms isn't it
that's correct so we have conducted an
investigation in more than 100 dairy
farms in India and since unproductive
animals from dairy farms are sold for
meat purposes wire cattle markets we've
also covered cattle markets and we have
also covered the slaughterhouses yes go
ahead we can hear you and during this
entire process of our investigation what
we have noticed is not of these just
cruel practices but they are blatant
violations of various laws laws right
from Prevention of Cruelty to Animals
Act the rules formed under Devon food
safety act and it was it was a good move
that the government came about with
these rules we have presented the
findings of this investigation to the
government and we had requested them to
include a different set of measures okay
and some of these measures have already
been implemented in those proposed rules
but it's a very sad day today that these
rules so I mean like they are planning
to revoke these rules today I know it is
indeed and let me ask some of those who
were seeking the revocation of these
rules now let me ask you sir how can
anyone back the trade in savagery in the
way we see it in the name of defending
freedom to make a choice and I want to
bring you in mr. Sunil Chopra on this
point the fact is you have only given
one side of the picture if you had shown
us the slaughter of goats the slaughter
of chickens as they flap around the
murder of hundreds of cattle of
starvation slow death in gautsche
Allah's we have had we would ever have a
different picture
but you have only chosen one thing that
is the slaughter of buffalos and cows
all slaughter is of this nature in this
country so should it not be banned or
not bothered about mr. Smith Chopra
pleases nature prowl and also have yes
gana Mariah yes because Hindus identify
with that is that not animal right
do they have no animals island you take
money and sure you support all others
into the jackal to death and Bray and
harness know all my relations
Raja you know one check it we let it
make his point civilized person on earth
justify the savagery look look there is
savagery in other thing no no in other
industries also another his right
you remember one second once again very
important it's very important to need
Chopra it's very important that we
address this holistically yes chicken
gold I agree with you exactly but the
point is one minute the point is that
you've had a band that has been
exercised are you trying to suggest sir
that the band was driven by ideological
compulsions then it was driven really by
Hindu worldview you no lies no and even
in the war for a moment and even if it
were for a moment we searched all eyes
there anything wrong a company I'm
asking you sir slaughter of cattle are
owned by Hindus can I ask you sir on by
Muslim can I ask you I'm not talking
about Hindus and Muslims you are you are
making it about religion why I am not
what I am talking about choice and I am
saying why should I be forced to excuse
me sir why should I be forced to buy
something my cattle mr. Lawton mr. mr.
Sahni Chopra
don't miss the wood for the trees there
are companies who are circumscribed by
consumers because they employed child
labour now you tell me
if there are companies that are
employing savages why should we be
compelled to buy their products whether
they are consumable whether it is me -
not me chicken what have you I'm only
asking you from a cruelty perspective of
celery for supporting garlic's this up
child labor is grandeur not that I know
I know
so someone yell maker started explosive
we need to talk about it how many does
coming and use me you child labor act on
the beat I think mr. Chopra sullen your
being political once again on an issue
which should actually bring together
fully people it is not political sir he
was a cruelty there is nothing political
about rural does that is working
political about karate let me open this
um let's ask a few people let me know
let me ask the Baratheon's apart ok I
coming is once a cattle allied one
second mr. Mallya whistle about politics
now we are being accused of focusing
only on the cow because the cow is
sacred to one religion in fact its
rights are not sacred to anyone else
beyond that religion isn't that a
disgusting way of portraying this entire
issue I want to ask you today mr.
Malcolm you know one Minister one minute
mr. one minute sir you had your sake
then where in mr. Rahul what I have seen
on your television channel is savagery I
mean I just couldn't sit through the
tapes as you were showing them and I
think those who are eating meat
particularly that of cow or beef or
Buffalo as that's available here should
think over the kind of meat that's been
put on their table in the way it comes
to them now I don't want to make it a
communal issue like the gentleman from
the left tried to do but there are some
points that I want to make still first
the cow slaughter in line with the
constitutional mandate should be banned
and that's not something that I'm saying
that's written in the Constitution and
that's followed in many states of the
country perhaps the ones that still
allow for cow slaughter should
reconsider
point number two what you
seen what we've seen on your channel is
a definite violation of law that already
exists
I saw the Ministry of Environmental
guidelines which were also talked about
on your program these are clear
violations of those and therefore what
is definitely happening is that somebody
is not implementing them probably
because of local considerations
political considerations or perhaps even
communal considerations so to say
because it is likely that these
slaughterhouses which are being run
illegally are run by preferred people of
a particular denomination I don't know
but local agencies can find out and put
her fault on it and lastly the law that
has been formulated which said that we
should not allow trade fairs to be
places where animals for slaughter can
be exchanged is something that the
government stands on it I am not aware
of the pressures that have come on it as
probably was in Menasha question but I
can tell you for what you have shown
this must have shaken the conscience of
several people and clearly this is earth
we have hardly shown you that we have
had only of three where we need to let
more you're Hazel's they are don t know
Riley we have hardly shown you what we
have witnessed we've only sanitized
these pictures you will not be able to
sit through even two minutes of the
footage that has been left out and that
is the reason why today the slot we are
one minute cheek mr. Chopra please let
me finish please for God's sakes this is
a serious issue people are upset of
course that's what I am saying now it's
a very difficult issue because on the
table is also the right to make a choice
the freedom to eat whatever you want to
eat and it has to be balanced with the
compulsions of rights of animals also so
don't make this you want don't make this
into a final aeon properly this is a
very serious issue it's not a binding
and it's a very difficult one to bring
to the table to discuss because
many people will today say that rousted
shankar the channel these and india
front today is wanting a ban on beef
that is not the idea behind this we want
to clean up of this sector and i don't
know how it can happen because slaughter
by definition is cruel and violate over
animal right
can anyone today come here and tell me
that slaughter can happen without paying
to the animal if there can be somebody
who can convince us then we will all
quietly go away into the sunset and hope
that these animals actually have a
better tomorrow
and i want to bring in Gauri maliki
Gauri Maliki isn't by slaughter
definition cruel and violative of animal
rights can any government political
party or pro-choice group guarantee
slaughter without pain I am asking you
this well I'll put three points together
for you one is that well slaughter is
painful but our laws provide for it
section 11 1/3 of the Prevention of
Cruelty to Animals Act says slaughter of
animals for food for mankind is
permitted so far as unnecessary pain and
suffering is not inflicted on the animal
now unnecessary pain and suffering is
clearly what you have shown on the video
today customs such as hammer slaughter
which happen mostly in Kerala and
certain portions which was on paper
banned by the earlier government but
still continues largely because there is
no implementation of it and other
customs like in West Bengal we see the
cutting of the order of a live cow a
milking cow because the little bit of
milk that's left in the other makes for
a good barbeque kebab something like
that it's a delicacy so stuff I mean
cultural methods of slaughter like that
or extremely horrendous and qualifiers
are necessary pain and suffering yes
moreover in February in 2017 the Supreme
Court came up with a 600 page compendium
or slaughterhouse laws creating an
entire rainbow of all the laws stripes
straight from transport to the pollution
control norms altogether
asked for the first tricked
implementation of those it's not
happening in even one state in this
country they are golden one not even why
state repeated reminders officers being
penalized the money in this business is
so bad I mean the money is just so much
that we are turning a blind eye to every
chicken coca that is on the roadside are
kinematically bad slaughter is more than
just animal right violation bad
slaughter is public health violation the
more we ignore bad slaughter the more we
have to invest in public health because
it's so I want to ask you there's no way
it's very well for the Supreme Court to
say that I'm not committed without
unnecessary pain and suffering but can
they ever be slaughter without pain and
suffering you please tell me there are
rights activists who say do away the
death penalty well rule it will explain
and suffering and trauma why can't that
be applied to animals specially the cow
you're right in fact or the chicken or
the goat or whatever if you read so
another of the judgment of justice
rather fish can come in here of 2014 the
Supreme Court held that the animals
actually have right to life as in the
section article 21 of the Constitution
but it would take a very courageous
government to take that view of course
we want that view Why should there be
any slaughter not just because animal
welfare because of reasons of
sustainability for reasons of ecology
then you want afford this country with
so many people to feed we can't have a
meat diet because 1 kg of meat is
actually equivalent to 11 kgs of grains
I mean one person actually jeopardizes
the meals of 10 other people in trying
to have meat this country so John I want
to read you about this I'm not even a
dieting vegetarian your ozone layer
there's so much methane but there are
there are very worrying consequences for
this morning governor's decided to push
a file from the mo en is a minute
Ministry of Environment and Forests
straight off to the law ministry to say
let's you know roll back this band let's
roll back this ban on trade for
slaughter now this is the reality
yeah yeah no no it is killing for food
even if necessary is a cruel business
whether you are taking fish out of water
killing chicken or killing a cow it is
terrible and the way of shown on TV it's
a terrible terrible terrible way of
treating animals and I condemn it out of
hand
having said that having said that and
having agreed with the fact that this
huge amount of money so everybody turns
a blind eye to it the law is being
rolled back for a gradient economic
reasons really what to do with surplus
and dry cattle which are cluttering the
countryside well there we will open now
is the one who's saying we will look
after this farmer is the one who says
that improbable so in an impractical you
won't work if you want stronger laws if
you want stronger laws look I need if
you want stronger laws for anybody he
wants to get his dogs of fish I'm all
for it okay ask I'm all for it let's go
I've not concluded you won't stop the
laws for Animal Welfare I am all for it
for fish for dogs for cat for cattle we
must have human laws you are a humane
sir he has it all for God's sake first
dr. John they are we are not
implementing them we don't implement
them and look at what is happening this
is not you know this is BBC and you
cannot sit here are not in 2016 when
you're not in revision low on hundreds
we are we are not implementing laws on
Nowakowski Nona had not implemented law
on agriculture please please please
let's put this in perspective let's put
this in perspective so there are many
starving individuals you know these men
of Catholic know no one second a
torturer along slowly
I won't watch a torture or vascular
effect is longer than any traditional
ultra endorse the inherent cruelty
linked to animal slaughter it's a simple
question and I'm asking you this quest
tonight mr. John Dale I'm asking dr. sob
how can any traditional culture endorse
the inherent cruelty linked to animal
slaughter
I can understand it you tell me what is
one supposed to do our very own dr.
Gupta's our very own I our very own dr.
Jerry Chandra Bose taught us and proved
scientifically that plants have feelings
that flower you answer my question
don't throw what plants gasps dogs my
sperm ask you after Munson God of
Mallick Gauri Maliki go ahead so it's
not about no and cutting a brinjal is
the same thing I mean what with these
silly rhetoric I mean we've had enough
of them and for many days I did beer at
all of them specially the one that says
oh there's so many animals if you don't
kill them then there'd be a lot more
money I mean and it was a break door
moment they are the breeding or
non-english imminently the artificial
insemination animals are barbaric you I
mean I'm a thousand times
my lords visualize do you draw fish die
oh come on oh god i dr. D Andre please
free dr. John there please come on don't
look at this ain't and people are
punching and kicking anyone deserves
animals anymore nyan beings does anyone
think one minute one second - I'm going
to take a short break
I'm on a mission to take a short break
I'm coming back to this story don't go
away I'm taking a short break and coming
right back to this story don't go away
please
[Music]
I have a problem with open-ended
questions questions that allow for
obfuscation you have not answered any of
my questions you have done since I make
us wear dunce caps are questions that
don't use the hard fact to do open fire
I'm asking you to do open fire yes or no
because only the absolute fact will
clinch the argument 15 judges have sat
in judgment of Bacchus - yes were you
about to commit premeditated murder
we attack questions bring closure here
is the meticulous Register of payments
which goes straight to orient office is
the warrior nothing more but the denial
of Pakistan why settle for anything less
demand the absolute hard fact
no one knows their true metal until it's
been tested
until it emerges from the fiery chasm of
experience as it flows through the true
course of credibility
until it gives form to raw insights
striking every lead with full force
on the anvil of journalistic integrity
fortifying your trust with our
principles and values
[Music]
we know our true mettle because you've
tested it times now action begins here
the morning news aha you are just
bothered of sake Hindu and Muslim we are
not saying you know and Muslim we are
saying what's wrong and what's right so
when people try and misconstrued and put
a wrong image you have to call their
bluff
thanks joining me live our crusader for
the people we're going to end this
debate on the fact that it's cranky but
it's not Parivaar Kabaddi is crime Kiba
these questions can't be avoided
she has been strangled his course would
be tonight
the university there with responsibility
for people died nobody was bothered
today a girl has been strangulated it is
still a hodgepodge investigation how is
this right
his passion for justice sets the agenda
most importantly integrity and honesty
we as a channel fiercely guard that and
I as a person first Agharta Holland's
nursing hand on x now action begins here
[Music]
the morning news on
[Music]
animal torture look at these pictures on
your screens video shot by animal rights
activists the activist is with us
tonight reality of slaughterhouses
exposed tapes reveal brazen flouting of
norms cattle tortured before slaughter
107 dairy farms 11 cattle markets
exposed sting was conducted across ten
states and it comes out on a day when
the government is contemplating a
lifting on the ban of trade for cow
slaughter so you have a direct contrast
because the government is under pressure
from various state governments that say
that there is mass unemployment no one
asks no one asks why the ban was put in
the first place because when you ask
that question you are told it's because
the government of the day wanted to
impose a Hindu Torah ideology well if
Hindu Torah is for protecting the rights
of animals who are being savaged savaged
by butchering of the most most abhorrent
kind then to salutes to Hindu - ah I
just want to ask a basic question and I
want to ask it of those skeptics here
Ilyusha frou dean I want to ask you
straight off and this is a question that
might sting you which faith which
tradition sir
allows for savagery like this in the
name of freedom choice etc I'm asking
you sir I know that you will say it is
my right to eat beef because my faith
dictates it but sir when it comes from a
source such as this savagery such as
this inhumanity such as this will you
not think twice sir instead of laughing
tonight it's not a subject that you
should laugh about sir
the hunt I want to say that level I want
to say say listen I want to say that
Hinduism Christianity Islam but these
as well as Judaism allows slaughtering
of animals through the Scriptures and I
thank Narendra Modi government for
making India the topmost exporter of
beef in the world 1.5 6 million ton
export every year and now they are
allowing in India so the rules which was
given by Supreme Court should be
implemented
there should be no cruelty there should
be no harm to the animals in a proper
manner and the Supreme Court guidelines
tells us we should have the slaughter of
the animals and the present-day
government is doing a great job by
lifting up the ban on the cotton
a-coming the farmers are dying due to
this bouquet we have farmers are
committing some survived had you this
let me bring in this money Khurana come
in here yes please go ahead mr. Singh
one minute miss Maliki one second mr.
Ahuja I have a question to him please go
ahead my my I have a question to him and
to everybody here and before that I must
thank you for standing for animals for
whom nobody stands today thank you for
standing for rules and regulations of
this country thank you for telling that
base something called pollution act is
something called water pollution act a
overuse of words transport of cattle
from one place to another you need to
adhere to all those rules so but tell me
one thing how can these two things
coexist
firstly there is a law name - Prevention
of Cruelty to Animals Act which says
that beating kicking piercing slapping
or overloading the animals is quilty to
them it is punishable it's a crime and
similarly you have slaughterhouses where
animals are slaughtered and that way my
life inoculations name is India
let me ask a question of the expert okay
so we have two individuals we have both
mister sharafuddin and we have of course
mr. Chopra who say that you are going to
break the back of farmers who will know
what to do with unproductive cattle or
cattle that becomes a certain age and
cannot actually pull the plug what
happens so I want to bring Gauri Maliki
into this is that the reason why we
should send them to be savagely tortured
cruel be massacred no actually the
government of india okay nothing is
happening to the farmers anyway and
these all flip-flops for political
reasons there is absolutely no logic
totally arbitrary
I'll show you the other side let me have
a question it's a silly rhetoric that
the farmers is okay when you let your
freak will you let me speak now the
farmers will only benefit if they if the
livestock is treated properly in this
country this bad slaughter is not
imported by any developed country in the
whole world only the Gulf countries are
taking our dirty filthy meat because no
other country developed country European
country wants our meat because it's so
filthy everybody knows the reality
India has slaughterhouses that run like
sewages anyway coming back to the
farmers the farmers will only benefit
I'll tell you why because the Ministry
of Agriculture itself had a department
called ICA or which had some conscience
left and they've developed a model
called the dry dairy model where you
keep the unproductive cattle in a proper
manner to boost organic farming right
now India spends one lakh crore every
year only on chemical fertilizers we can
save that money if we keep on
unproductive cattle once the cow goes
dry or there's a bull and use it for
organic money or to boost the farming
rather than putting more chemical
fertilizers what happened in Maharashtra
what happened in Punjab the farmers are
losing their land they need more water
which turbines are committing suicide
they can actually make the soil even
better make the years even better by
actually keeping that cattle residence
there you go to the butchers
dr. John they are filthy butcher yeah
you mean establish them in this town
here is the solution document it now
that illegal butchery is funding there
is a solution quality to children
so you know we are not exclusive old
Eugene right now we'll complexed don't
know you worry doctor they are don't you
worry we've already got a team out there
that is filming that too that will also
come out
don't try to cleverly change the
goalposts by suggesting oh glad you know
certain people are only talking about
the car because they're only so good
what he willeth them I know it is it's a
very very mischievous attempts are on
your part a more communal is I have a
multi debate you know that you know I I
have all violence shameless come on yeah
Maureen listen do not bring in this
suggestion of Hindutva it is a communal
proceeding not a common abortions to
animal hand like politely whom we
doesn't even believe in community
sitting and talking I got from the
[ __ ] thing coming to answer a lot of
cows being killed by the husband a liar
there you go it is a lie a guy out why
the people who depend in butchery are
O'Neill's thank you son thank you for
telling us we need to wrap up we need to
wrap up also on this debate but I just
want to quickly come out one final time
to the brave people who reach their
lives the brave people who list their
lives today to bring out this thing and
I want to come back to you one final
time I'm Ruth aballay
this must have been a very difficult
exercise
it definitely was a till today the cries
of those helpless mothers and helpless
babies right from dairy slaughterhouses
cattle markets ring into our heads and
while we are talking about me today I
just wanted to quickly make a point make
a point about the underlying issue of
meat is basically dairy which we've been
failing to address today in the debate
it's the unproductive animals from the
dairy industry which are supplied for
meat for the beef industry as that is
something which needs to be addressed
whether we are talking about we are
talking about a ban on meat but unless
we address this issue I mean like this
is a secondary issue ban on meat I
understand that and that's the reason
why I haven't stressed on that unless me
why everyone has a right to eat meat you
have a right in the non-vegetarian but
we must now begin to draw the line
between what is ethical meat and what is
not because that is really where we need
to interject into this debate this
cannot go on in the name of upholding
the right to eat meat no one is against
that right no one is against that right
and I want to make it very clear we move
on today because there has been another
big story that is developed in the
background India's growth graph has shot
up the GDP figures have brought about
reasons to cheer as 15 months of GDP
decline have been reversed that's right
this is the first in five quarters where
the declining trend has reversed GDP
growth rate for the second quarter of
this fiscal year stands at six point
three percent with manufacturing with a
manufacturing sector leading the rebound
that's right make in India productivity
what-have-you is up this comes after the
World Bank and Moody's cheered India's
economic prospects the Finance Minister
Jaitley has said that the numbers
indicate that the impact of north bundy
and GST are now behind us so is this
then another vote for more dynamics for
the reforms albeit albeit incremental
that this government has been conducting
for three and a half years we have with
us today one of the leading members of
the think-tank that advises the prime
minister and looks up at policy making
we also have with us again drea the
founder of the Swaraj Abhiyan Rajeev
Kumar incidentally is the vice chairman
of the nithya yoga now I want to bring
you into this conversation mr. Rajeev
Kumar what do you make of these numbers
and do you believe that they will
constitute some sort of achieving ahead
of us yes of course they are looking up
because of the reforms but I think the
better way to put it is that they are
looking up despite the huge structural
reforms which everybody thought the
economy was not strong enough to take
into stride and go forward and because
of that I am so sure that this is just
the beginning of a good economic
recovery because these reforms have put
the economy on a completely different
trajectory both by formalizing it much
bigger and by removing the impediments
for interstate movement of you know
movement of goods and freight and also
cleaning of the you know cleaning of the
tax system so you've got it in kana me
which is now firmly put or a higher
growth trajectory so that you will see
this improving from quarter to quarter
okay let me bring in mr. yogi in the
other on this point mr. you again the
other there is of course in the numbers
an element to be worried about
because agricultural growth is not
picking up it's actually lagging some
will say that there is now a greater
disparity
in the way the economy is shaping up
between those that are perhaps close to
power or in the corporate sector the
richest 1% 2% 5% and the poorest would
you say that this will also be taken
care of because of the trickle-down
effect Rahul I appreciate mr. Rajeev
Kumar hope and it's pointless to argue
against hope if someone is so hopeful or
optimistic about my country why should I
are you against that person I would just
underline the fact that it's hope a lot
of what is being presented today has
good deal of optimism and I would wish
to understand what are the grounds of
that optimism the one part is clear
definite solid good news the good news
is that from unprecedented low of five
point seven we've reached six point
three which can only be positive the
question is what do we compare this six
point three with from the last quarter
of five point seven is good do we
compare it with last year that four
seven point five we're not so good do we
compare it to the expectations that
people had slightly below expectation to
my mind a serious question would should
have been and any as an economist Rajeev
Kumar would appreciate it we must
compare it to counterfactual namely
where the economy would have been should
have been if the government had not made
the kind of intervention it has my sense
is that it should have been somewhere
close to eight percent but I would not
argue with an economist on this the
second question to my mind is as
economists after economists have always
pointed out GDP numbers give us very big
broad big number they don't necessarily
tell us about well-being of each section
of society yes I am worried about the
figures on two counts one an agriculture
it's only one point seven actually lower
than the previous quarter and much lower
than last year and if you break
agriculture into livestock etc versus
crops and in crops actually it's
negative growth okay now this is despite
a decent career
crop recent Rabi in the past so the
problem is not that our production is
collapsing the real problem is prices
are collapsing and the farmer is taking
a hit
yes let's get you to your on your before
person Agriculture's underperform by my
my investments are not positive either
but then I would leave it to mr. Kumar
okay so let me let me get him to respond
is the lag in agriculture dr. Kumar only
confirming that growth in India is not
addressing disparities it's not
addressing those that really find
themselves in distress the growth in
India will will will address disparity
by generating much more employment
because that is where that is the
underlying cause for for increasing
inequalities etc but the other way to
look at it is also that and that we need
to also reduce regional disparity and
that we will achieve an ethiop by by by
this preferred that we are making an
ethiop for trying to develop and design
state specific development agendas
rather than thruster once
one-size-fit-all
for all the states so what you need to
do about disparity is is to is to
improve the productivity in the
agricultural sector and for that also we
are beginning to take some steps and get
to get some pilot projects into the you
going and as the father farmers incomes
improve and not necessarily sort of you
know only a figure of agriculture
production I think all those measures
put together the regional the employment
and the agriculture will make sure that
disparity is also begin to get addressed
in our economy okay and I'll look you
know this is all obviously hypothetical
because no one has a crystal ball but
very quickly because the other point
that dr. Yeoh Gendry Arthur made was
that we would have been perhaps at 8%
had these interventions not been made is
it fair to say that GST implementation
disrupted if not also perhaps
significantly depressed industrial would
you say that it disrupted but it did not
depress industry of course I think it is
ruptured it but because of the because
of the sensitivity which we
tackled the whole issue and the number
of changes that they're made in response
to all the queries and the you know and
the feedback that they've got has meant
that the big industry especially our
large industry which accounts for about
eighty eighty-five percent of the GDP
has not been disrupted unduly and and
because now the small and medium
enterprises and the trading class has
also begin to get into the GST net and a
begin to understand and absorb its
impact I think you will see that even
those sectors will henceforth improve as
we go forward so GST has been praised
Peru is a winner and will prove even a
bigger winner as we go forward okay
well doctor you again there are other
two questions two responses
what's your quick response as I said I
would not call with optimism
I would underline the fact that in what
must dr. Kumar has said there is a lot
of optimism pure and simple I wish him
luck I think the important I'm glad he
mentioned our employment and that is
where the heart of the problem lies what
is it in these figures to give us
confidence that employment will grow I
don't see very much in fact even
investment figures are not the stable
long-term investment figures are not
picking up they P one can hope that it
would and also on the agriculture front
where this effect is prices are crashing
the government has failed to implement
even its minimum support price policy is
really hurting the farmer and I would
really like to know what is going to
address it okay well I'm really running
out of time but I want to ask dr. Rajeev
Kumar a simple question you're
optimistic are you optimistic because
the worst of the demo and the GST effect
is behind us and therefore you can get
away now and get on with the business of
addressing the other lacunae in the
other sectors is that what you're saying
dr. Rajeev Kumar the teething troubles
are behind us but we not that doesn't
mean that you know we won't have to make
further change
we probably will have to make further
changes and my own estimate is that as
we go forward we will converge to three
rates in this economy maybe in six
months maybe in a year's time and which
will be about zero you know and then
about around fifteen to eighteen percent
and then twenty-eight percent the last
category will have only what we call the
CIN goods or the very high luxury goods
so that with that convergence once we
achieve that this economy will have the
the cleanest the most rationalized and
the most efficient indirect tax system
anywhere in the world
okay well optimism must meet performance
and that's the convergence where we must
actually put all our energy and obvious
expectations behind thank you gentlemen
for joining me this evening we leave it
at that the news are coming up in just a
few moments stay with us
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